Thursday, January 29, 2009


Okay, show of hands. Herrumph, I want to see the hands of all the people who, when they have a conflict during their day, blame the other party or the system (for flaws they should do something about). Assuming you’re being candid, that should be just about everyone at one time or another. Now, let’s see the hands of all the people who, amid conflict during their day, realize there is something to be learned here, to avoid a repetition, for the good of the system and the road to a successful, happy life (with all its flaws, ya gotta love it). Wow, same folks on days they’re feeling better.

Well, both are half right. How equivocal can one get, eh? But the combination of the wrong halves is absolutely destructive to any unique potential one may be born with. The system of western civilization retards human potential because it thrives on conformity to herding procedures contrived by dominant elite to handle obedient sheeple profitably. On the flip side of that, there is no system that allows everyone to freely, fully grow into their own unique genetic birthright potential — except nature, the system within and against which our obedience to civilization wars.

Oh, that system. Amazing. We are trapped in our subjugation of nature. We expect to be carried for our obedience to its denial of any symbiotic relation to what we are destroying.

Okay, now another show of hands, how many have realized all your daily conflicts occur only within civilization’s systems and never when alone or with kindred spirits in the wild. The combination of the right halves of the forgoing responses to daily conflict is a realization that obeying a flawed system cures nothing, endlessly trying to fix it only validates the existence of its authority and living off the map as indigenous people have since before the invention of white wall wheel brings symbiotic peace with nature, whose lack is the crack in civilization’s trap.


Pisces Iscariot said...

Many of my conflicts stem from misfiring communications with those already most subjucated: power-freaks and halfwitted slaves to the system.

Yodood said...

I leave communicating from nature back to the dungeon to this blod by metaphors about their "stuff". Any more directly is guaranteed hassle.

Even trying must be a residual civil habit because I still believe, taken lightly, words can be extremely valuable in enhancing people's worldview and the natural gestalt of their society. Hammered into weapons, words only deafen the wielders to their necessarily self-created foes.

Pisces Iscariot said...

My conclusion is to allow the stupified to continue being stupid - there is no cure :}

Yodood said...

If I hadn't been a card carrying stupified before awakening to the myth, I might agree with you. But if I can do it, many more can that still haven't. It was such an understanding that jarred me into seeing the greater picture of the big grater of human potential.

Lilwave said...

"there is no system that allows everyone to freely, fully grow into their own unique genetic birthright potential — except nature"

I'm sure I missed your full meaning with this statement so humor me a minute with my comment....
If we were to spend our life alone with nature wouldn't that retard us from the social part of who we are, therefore keeping us from fully growing. Besides, without a tribe/group/civilization,it would be very lonely. We may learn about many things externally but internally we would be lacking.
I don't think there is any such thing as a kindred spirit. At least one that lasts very long. If it were I feel it would be quite boring always being with someone who feels and thinks the way you do.
Indigenous people live in the wild yes, but I don't think they are all kindred spirits. Otherwise they wouldn't spear someone for disobeying the rules of the tribe. There is always a down side of human nature no matter if your alone or with others...don't you think? I think we become exactly who we are supposed to be because of the discord as well as the comradery. It's the responsibility we take for ourselves in the situation which makes us grow or retarded.
Do not mistake my comment to be in disagreement with most of what you said. I'm just thinking of it logically. To me it is just a romantic fantasy of living in the wild with kindred spirits. Nature can be much more vicious than our screwed up system at times.

BTW..there should be a new language developed based on the word verifications. I like most of them. i.e....Pretat-The moments when Tat comes before the Tit, therefore not needing an equal exchange as when having to give the usual Tit for Tat. lol

Yodood said...

Lil'wave, the "alone" part was just a suggested example of times when we can experience the peace found in tne remaining natural environment available.

I'm quie surprised at your dismissal of the existence of kindred spirits, being a supposedly love directed follower of Jesus! What I was trying to express by the term is a kindred understanding that symbiosis with nature is the best, most loving way to coexist with the rest of the parts of the body we are part of. Maybe there is no such connection in your Jesus' guidance?

Nature can be much more vicious than our screwed up system at times.

The times of viciousness you speak of are in relation to man's attempts at establishing permanency in defiance of the indifferent, constant and generally predictable changes of nature. Indigenous people do not build permanent shelters around volcanoes and coast lines or cause people to die insisting on human superiority deserving gods exemptions from being bitten by the world they claim is their inheritance, like the people playing poker in Pass Christian on the third floor during Camile. Is gravity vicious because it usually kills people who fall 50 feet to concrete?

pretat: the anxiety of standing in line to get a tattoo on your breast, or tat for tit as it were. ;p

Lilwave said...

Maybe I'm taking the meaning of kindred spirits to mean one who feels and thinks like you on all things. Too extreme I suppose? Although there is a common belief in Christianity, there are many different interpretations of the scriptures meanings. Otherwise, people would be able to get beyond whatever denomination they find themselves in. We are still individuals with our own thoughts to sort out.
As far as nature goes, I'm not talking about just weather effects to modern civilization. What about bird flu which jumped from birds to humans? Or the Ebola virus? Or when an Indigenous person becomes tiger dung? That would really suck! Just being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Viruses and Germs are as natural as we are. There are many things that make nature vicious outside of modern civilization and human superior ideals. It is what it is...just like us, there is a down side to not only human nature but all nature.

New WV definition: Ining-A time to hang out indoors for the purpose of relaxation or entertainment. Picnic baskets can be used but the kitchen is allowed as long as you don't clean it until the ining is over.

Yodood said...

Oh yeah, attachment to life. No matter how much evidence of the transition of death surrounds us, it's yet another expression of how western civilization views natural change as vicious because they are powerless to alter it, as if our superiority as a species is being especially insulted, assaulted and killed undeservedly, as if our concocted sense of virtue was the natural qualification for who deserves to live or die.

Lilwave said...

All animals grieve death, not just humans.

Yodood said...

So you know what animals are feeling? Recognizing death is not necessarily grief. I will never grieve the death of my dad, because our relationship lacked nothing and is real now as when he was alive. You couldn't possibly be mistaking your anthropomorphization of animals as reality could you? If it works for gods it must also apply to animals, eh?

What ever happened to the phrase, "I don't know!" You are certain nature is vicious (a characteristic that can only be applied to human behavior because it is the only purpose we can know) and animals interpret life just like we do (yep, those chickens just love my scrambled eggs).

Lilwave said...

I've watched animal behavior after a death. They go through what I interpret as a grieving behavior. It is as close to grieving as I've ever seen. What they actually feel, who really knows. I think it is a natural process, not just a made up behavior of human superiority. Can you honestly tell me that you don't greive Donna? Can you honestly think your being unatural to do so?

Back to what we were originally talking stated our conflicts only occur in civilization but never alone or with kindred spirits in the wild. You also say we can not reach our full selves as nature intended otherwise.
When I state that nature can be vicious yes, of course I'm using a human interpetation because that is what we are talking about here. I am comparing living inside civilization to the alternative of living outside civilization as it would effect me as a human. My point is that no matter where you are, you have conflict and that real peace can only come within. Peace among storms is a beautiful thing. We all fear the sting of death because it hurts, not to say that we must fear being dead. We all grieve death because we miss one another. Those may or may not be exclusive behaviors of humans but I think it is a natural thing, not just because of one feeling somehow superior.

Yodood said...

"… what I interpret as a grieving behavior"

Fine, but notice,it is your interpretation and not necessarily true.

What I feel for Donna is the regret for her incompleteness. The memory of sitting in her hospital room the night she died while your mother and grandmother stared holes in me, blaming me out of their own grief is an extra added feature courtesy Christian insistence on placing blame. If you want to call that painful memory grief that is also your interpretation.

I have never proposed that nature has an intention. All purpose is imposed on life by interpretation of nature's indifferent transformations.

"…as it would effect me as a human."

Here may be the crux of our disconnect: when you say human here, you are not talking about an entity born as naturally into the wild as the rest of the animals. You are talking about entities raised in a culture that dominates, invalidates and attempts to reprogram each newborn from womb to tomb. Maybe you can grok the difference and how being able to see the world beyond the myth being enforced by dogma and incarceration is the way to return to true symbiosis with nature without the Christian notion of ownership of an inheritance. The viciousness you perceive is your interpretation of natures changes which contradict your certainty of the way it's supposed to be in the mythical plan of god and intent of civilization.

"We all grieve death because we miss one another."

If such is the case, I grieve you much more than Donna because, lets face it, there is nothing to be done about Donna. Whereas there is much more than merely missing you, such as sharing each other's lives in a much more natural, complete way than email and blog comments. I suppose it may be your fear of my "viciousness" at close enough range to upset your arrangement of how it's supposed to be.

This could have been an email, but I am answering your comment here, where you posted it.

Lilwave said...

I sometimes think our debating our point is as much about arguing which is the best wording to use rather than an actual disagreement of the meanings. You refer everything I say back to my belief in God which I realize is your way of saying I'm one of the stupid sheeple so I couldn't possibly understand nature like you. I sometimes wonder if you just don't like being a part of the human species. Each species has its own natural behavior. I've even seen other species behave unnaturally and in a destructive manner while in the wild. We are a part of this earth just like any other occupant. Although we can be selfish and destructive, we have the ability to control that. No doubt, we could learn from other humans that live outside modern civilization but then again, I think they could learn from us too. Neither side is perfect but both sides live with natural behaviors. We must decide if our actions (natural or not)are beneficial to ourselves but destructive to everything else and what we should do with it. You'll never make civilization go away but by living your own life as unselfish, loving, caring, and giving as possible will cause a ripple that makes things a little better. That sometimes goes against our nature to behave in such a giving way actually but it is definitely what we need more of. We separate ourselves from one another and live in a much smaller world than it really is. That is where we fail and war is the result. God teaches to overcome the separations and love anyway. So is that me acting if I'm superior? If so, then label me however you need to. I'm at peace with myself today.
BTW...I miss you too and hope to see you sooner than later...

Yodood said...

Once again, because I see the Christian creativity myth as the essential evil in and excuse for western civilization's self-righteous conquest, enslavement and ownership of the entire world and the people in it, you have to jump in there with your ego and defend your faith in a personal relationship, which by your own declaration, I couldn't possibly understand and therefore could not attack if I tried.

Although I use the generic term, civilization, I am only ever speaking of the only civilization I have experienced: Western Civilization. I have experienced information that there are other much more benign civilizations that have existed in the history of the world and that western civilization is taking advantage of that too.If I didn't envision the possibility of a civilization which recognizes the necessity of relating symbiotically with the planet I would not only not be blogging at all, you could wonder if I'm partying with Donna, because I'd have long ago parted this mortal coil.

Lilwave said...

"I see the Christian creativity myth as the essential evil in and excuse for western civilization's self-righteous conquest"

You are throwing all your eggs into one basket when there is plenty of blame to go around.
Soooo okay, lets say that somehow creationism is the cause of all the evils in civilization. If so then lets look at the alternative since we do have an example to go by. The civilization of Hitler. He was an evolutionist that felt he could clean up the genetic pool through evolution to create the perfect race. This is what lead to his genocide quest. No thank you, I'll pass. Genetic altering is still being attempted to create perfection by the way. Talk about self righteous.
I have heard enough debates between creationism and evolution to know that both leave as many questions as answers.
I don't have enough faith to be an evolutionist and follow those theories of where we began unless God was the one that spoke it into existence. Non-living did not suddenly become living. It is not scientifically possible or logical. It's just a theory/idea/ proof.
With all that though, certainly our disagreement about our beginning can't be blamed for everything. Do you really think that we are that different? Within each of us is the good and bad we must sort out. Our decisions as an individual is what makes the world what it is no matter what group we associate with. We all eventually have a bit of our own self-righteousness to work through.
I think people in general do care about the plant but not everyone was meant to come up with the solutions no more than you were meant to be the President of the US. Certainly you've heard the story of the hungry man. "If you give a man a fish he would eat his meal and then starve. If you teach him to fish he will fish for a lifetime." I'm sure he could feed many with that food, not just himself. Maybe you should push your brilliant ideas that you have as far as they can go and teach others rather than blaming any one group for the need for it. Your gardening site is awesome. You are one of the smartest most creative people I know. Don't just be that, teach that!

Yodood said...

Oh Lil'wave. You have got to be trying to be facetious with your teaching suggestion. I can't even get across to you, who I would hope wants to understand for other reasons than to just defend your "personal" faith against my rants against the general effect of faith.
Okay let's go through your latest reply:

"You are throwing all your eggs into one basket when there is plenty of blame to go around"

What eggs? What basket?

"lets say that somehow creationism is the cause of all the evils in civilization."

Lets not, I never have, so why are you. I said the myth is the essential evil and excuse for Western Civilization's self-righteous conquests. Even though you call him an atheist, Hitler operated from the premise that the world was his to fuck with (right out of genesis). Many religions and philosophies are based on a creation myth. So far in my experience of world history the most atrocious acts have been perpetrated by self-righteous imposition of some god's will, or at least his permission, over what ever lands and people being deemed exploitable, dispensible property. It is the whole sick idea of acquisitive ownership to attain god like superiority, or at least fool one's subjects into fearing one's wrath, if one's benevolence doesn't evoke any belief.

"Non-living did not suddenly become living. It is not scientifically possible or logical. It's just a theory/idea/ proof."

First of all, I do not see non living as a state of existence. Calling a mountain non living ignores its part as bones or shell of the living planet earth, trees are the lungs, oceans are the blood and lately, we're the cancer. The scientific or logical possibility you mention is neither.

Ho-ho — (Other than the fact that the theory you mentioned is purely your own concoction), you,who defends creationism, whose only evidence is words in a book of fairy tales taken on FAITH, demands PROOF from a theory they are not allowed to comprehend by the prohibitions of such belief. The compounding self-contradictions bring on the vapors.

"Our decisions as an individual is what makes the world what it is"

As individuals, our responsibility is to learn how to leave the smallest foot print through symbiosis, so even native trackers could not find us. The actions of humans that change the world from the natural bounty it is, are precisely the result of a god's giving man the belief it is all for him.

Ah, Lil'wave, I love that parable, but it is a poor metaphor for men who demand to be served caviar from the rarest fish in the world halfway round the world just because he has enough money to do so. That is an extreme example, but only people who come to the realizations I would like to be understood, must come to them on their own version of the path to clarity — as you have said, it's different for everyone, no group to join more inclusive the symbiotic body of fellow earthlings, and we are already that, but have yet to see it.

Don't know what you mean by blaming one group? The only thing I blame is the use of a god myth to entitle anyone to act against the interests of their environment. Pretty big group, nameless, lacking requisite empathy, ravenous hunger, undeserved arrogance, knee jerk certainty …

Lilwave said...

I was in no way being facetious by my suggestion. Teaching sometimes is best swallowed when you take someones hand and show them rather than just telling what you want them to hear. I know you have to be the first to agree with me on that because of your views on traditional school environments. You are so creative it is just too bad more people cannot see what you do. Why would the earth be a better place if that part of you were untraceable? I don't think we have to be untraceable but rather leave something good behind in gratitude of the life we had.
Whether you realize it or not, you do teach me many things especially about myself. One of the hardest things, I think, for people is realizing that the fantasy of who they think they are is not the reality of who they really are. Most problems can be solved when the two images become one and then they can be responsible. You have kept me accountable in that area. I may not agree with everything but you bring me awareness.
I've never interpreted anything God has shown, told, or had me experience that made me think the world was mine to do as I pleased but rather my responsibility to protect as a guardian through the same love and grace God gives me. The way I see it, is that people do not care about God or anything else but themselves. No excuse needed. It's a me, myself, and I complex that is the poison killing everything it touches.

The proof you talk about when you refer to God is not something I need you to prove to me but something I can prove to myself. This I have done and continue to do the deeper I go in my search.
Although the Holy Bible has words of life in it, God speaks beyond the words. I would have found God with or without it.

Too bad our government can't hire indigenous people to help find the best and quickest way to go green. It's time for them to have a chance to teach us...I'm thinking....Because we've lost those abilities so we need to hire the professionals. It would suck for them though.
Our biggest problem for trying to change destructive behavior is that, unless it is profitable the most brilliant answers don't stand a chance. Like you said, many want the caviar, I have to agree except I think it is a lot less people than you are thinking. Those at the top with power...definitely. But we can still make ripples that may turn into waves.

Yodood said...

Wave on, widdle wabbit!

"I would have found God with or without it."

And without the Bible you would have found the same god as the "father" of Jesus? He told you that too?

"Why would the earth be a better place if that part of you were untraceable?"

We are not here to make the world a better place. Being easily dissatisfied with and feeling entitled to improve on nature is exactly why civilization is so screwed up. The only thing we can make better is civilization by reducing our contribution to the destructive features of society, civilization.

Hire the indigenous??? Don't you understand anything????????

Lilwave said...

The Bible brought me understanding of what it was that I had found.

Yes of course I do. Come on, that part was a bit of a joke.

Yodood said...

If you had lived in Iraq, the Koran may have explained it for you. The named issue forth from the nameless. All over the world most people are of the religion of their family, most of which are the religion of their location.

Pretty sad joke.

BTW, "Like you said, many want the caviar, I have to agree except I think it is a lot less people than you are thinking."

I said it was an extreme, but the mass of people who claim they deserve to be served come from anyone with an exceptional superiority attutude.

Lilwave said...

Maybe, but then again, maybe not. And then again I might not have known what God was unless I read the Bible. I can only assume since I have been reading the Bible. That part doesn't matter to me anyway. Jesus left a message that I can agree with. By following it, it brings a closer relationship to God. I'm at peace with it. It all comes together and makes sense. You call it what you want but to me it brings incredible truth to so much of my life.

The joke was not a ha ha funny joke...I was mocking our government. That is also why I said that unless brilliant ideas are profitable they wouldn't stand a chance.

Lilwave said...

I need to make a correction to something that I said before. I said that I may have found God with or without the Bible. That is not exactly correct because the Bible is the only link I have to the message Jesus brought. It is because of Jesus that I am able to have a direct relationship with God. This clarification on my part is not to really start this conversation back up but rather to make it clear what I believe for closure.
Also, in looking at how I stated the "hiring indigenous people", I can see how the sarcasm got lost in interpretation. I wrote it as if I meant it. Although I do think we could learn a lot from them, hiring them would only loose the thing we are trying to learn.